BATTLEGROUND VICTORY. COM
BLACKLIST






SEAN PATTY wrote:
Posted on 11/18/2011 at 4:51 PM

Thanks for the recent update and I appreciate Bill Cox’s
efforts to improve CAF, a site which I have found, as a
Creator, to be an asset in promoting my comics and fantasy
artwork auctions on eBay. I understand Cox has been
working as an affiliate marketer with eBay via CAF for some
time now as a partner and has been very successful and
thus we Creators, Dealers and Collectors/Buyers here at
CAF have all contributed that success and I have enjoyed my
participation. I have paid for advertising here on CAF. I have
also been a Premium Member for many years and was
happy to help finance the site until recently when Cox
decided on October 27 to forbid members from promoting
eBay auctions containing tasteful nudity in the CAF Member
Auctions gallery. It was at this point that I decided to NOT
continue my Premium Membership.

While I agree that pornographic art definitely requires
restrictions and will abide by Cox’s desire to place CAF
“more in line with other online gallery sites such as Deviant
Art”, I find it curious that tasteful nudity is now unacceptable
and that Cox states: “We provide no means for you to label
the images as Not Work Safe and therefore must make this
request. You are also not allowed to post NWS style images
as a means of hiding the fact that you are linking to Not
Work Safe auctions on eBay either.” I do hope Cox, as a web
designer and his wife, a lead programmer, might see fit to
provide such “means” for individual eBay listings as he has
done so well for the general CAF gallery room which may be
NWS restricted for those who find a bare female breast too
troubling to gaze upon. I do not see why the use of a Creator-
altered NWS image should be now forbidden, as well.

Indeed it is interesting to note that under these current Cox
guidelines a Master like Frank Frazetta could not list and
promote his tasteful nude or erotic fantasy art eBay
auctions if he were here today, which does indicate a flawed
approach on Cox’s part, as his own Terms and Conditions
statement allows for nude art and indicates: “This web site
is primarily intended for the use and enjoyment of persons
who are at least 18 years old.” Also, I have noted Cox
continues to promote some nudes, or NWS censored nudes
or erotic imagery (like a clothed but masturbating Wonder
Woman) in the Hot eBay Auctions gallery, which indicates a
lack of consistency on his part and creates confusion for we
members who contribute to the success of CAF.  

The planned “initiative” and the use of “volunteers to help us
police posts to the site” is also of concern. One can only
hope that Cox will select “police”men of quality and hope
they employ good judgment as censors, although such
activities usually become questionable very early on. Cox
states: “We do not wish to stifle artistic creativity, or remove
notable works by many masters of comic art, but we also
want to keep the site an enjoyable place for everyone to
participate and in turn hopefully share the site with their
friends and colleagues.” So time will tell.

I may elect to renew my Premium Membership again,
depending on the direction Bill Cox’s initiative takes, but at
this time I cannot fund an effort which intends to limit my
artistic expression when it comes to tasteful nudity in my
comics or fantasy works. All elements of this business flow
from the Creator, we who make the original artwork.
Without us Creators there would be no CAF. It is best to
remember this truth. Hopefully this feedback is helpful for all
involved.  
–Sean Patty



Bill Cox wrote:  
Posted on 11/18/2011 at 6:50 PM

While I've nothing really to add to Sean's ramblings I can't
allow him to tell lies about myself or the site.

First, while it is true that Sean has supported CAF with a few
ads and once was a premium member as well - both of
which we really appreciate - his membership expired 2
weeks prior to our updating our policy on what can and
cannot be included in the ebay auctions one promotes on
CAF. So Sean had already chosen not to renew his
membership before our update on our policies was made.

Second, CAF never willingly promoted an image of Wonder
Woman, clothed, fondling herself. There was an auction
posted to CAF by a member of the site (not Sean) and that
auction appeared on the homepage of CAF for half a day
before it was brought to our attention by another member
and we removed it. It also randomly appeared at the top of
the site while it was still active. It was this particular auction
that was the straw that broke the camel's back on allowing
nudes and sexually suggestive images to be posted by CAF
members to their ebay auctions because of a lack of both a
filter from us, and member's inability to regulate what they
posted. Regrettably we have turned a blind eye to images of
this sort for a very long time, and we have alienated many
collectors and fans of comic art by doing so.

Similarly, the reason we chose to no longer allow people to
"edit" their nudes by putting balloons on them to hide
"things" was primarily because the person in question doing
this was not even linking to artwork contained in the Comic
Art Section of eBay, but to the Everything Else/Pornography
section of eBay. This was because the images would never
have been allowed in the original comic art section of ebay.
Since we cannot police when someone choses to "edit"
their nudes, we have opted to not allow this practice
because we also feel that tasteful editing of one's image to
place balloons on it could then become a means of self
promoting the art even more, even when the balloons would
not be used to cover up nudity. I envision people putting
bubbles and boxes on just about anything to promote their
auctions more. So we're not going to allow it.

eBay auctions automatically flow from eBay to CAF now, and
sometimes we edit them after the fact though most
questionable artwork is excluded ahead of time.

Before we establish our group of site editors to help us
police the site we have some work to complete. Namely we
are going to integrate a feature that allows you to lock their
gallery rooms in your gallery, such that anyone wanting to
view the art in them will have to request access from the
owner/artist. This way a gallery owner knows who is
accessing their images and will be able to grant or deny
access to these users. While we feel this will be of benefit to
artists and collectors with questionable imagery, this will
also be of benefit to collectors who want to better restrict
access to some of their collection for private sales, or
because they do not want all CAF visitors to know what they
own. -Bill



SEAN PATTY wrote:
Posted on 11/21/2011 at 6:53 PM

Bill Cox’s unfounded claims of “lies” are unbecoming for a
site administrator and I will correct Cox and also offer
further observations and constructive feedback. One year
ago, during my last CAF renewal period, my membership
also expired before I soon renewed it again. Indeed, if
memory serves, it had been expired for 2 or 3 weeks before
I renewed it because I was pleased with the direction Cox
was taking the site and thus I was happy to still help support
Cox financially. So whatever aspersions Cox tries to make
concerning my character have no merit, as a pattern had
been established beforehand. These brief lapses can occur
because, as a Creator, there are many elements demanding
my attention each day and so the immediate renewal of the
CAF membership is not a priority. I decided to NOT renew the
membership this year after I took note of Cox’s October 27
initiative and still feel, regardless of Cox’s recent attempts
to explain his actions, that it is the appropriate response at
this time.

Furthermore, Cox is referring to an image by an artist who
was listing work in the CAF Member eBay Auctions gallery
which linked to the Adults Only section of eBay. The image of
the barely clothed and fondling Wonder Woman image that I
referenced was indeed POSTED in the CAF Hot eBay
Auctions gallery of the site and thus Cox was promoting this
highly sexually suggestive artwork whether he included it
there or a minion did so. Make no mistake, I have no issues
with Cox promoting any artwork he wishes, not a problem,
but I observed this piece after the initiative of October 27
and brought it to light, along with other inconsistencies, to
illustrate concerns over Cox’s newfound desire to impose
restrictions upon CAF members art listings containing nudity
or suggestive imagery or the self-editing of such imagery, as
he has elected to not provide “a filter”, while disregarding
his own guidelines in some cases when it comes to
auctions he promotes.

It is worth noting that a legendary “underground” comics
artist like Robert Crumb would also be required by eBay to
list a large amount of original comics art in the Everything
Else/ Adults Only section on eBay because eBay prohibits
the “editing” of images in the Original Comics Art category.
It is important to realize that just because a work is listed in
the Adults Only section that the merit of Crumbs work is not
diminished in any way. Richard Corben’s underground work
also comes to mind and the DEN episodes which were
serialized in Heavy Metal magazine and were clearly adult in
nature and have been widely considered to be of a high
quality artistically. There are others like Manara and Crepax
who also fall into this category and are highly regarded
Creators in the comics field. But by Cox’s new mandate,
these seminal Creator’s works would not be permitted for
promotion on CAF, which further illustrates that these
guidelines are flawed and require revision by Cox.

Additionally, while I appreciate Cox expounding upon his
new policy regarding “edited” images listed in the general
eBay comics category, I have noted Cox continued to
promote “edited” images in the Hot eBay Auctions gallery
while the membership is excluded from such activities as of
October 27. I have also noted that these pieces were by
highly regarded creators whose art sells for high values and
as Cox is an eBay “affiliate” there is the obvious profit
incentive upon his part to violate his very own guidelines, but
the fact is that these pieces had the “bubbles and boxes”
placed over body parts even though Cox states he is “not
going to allow it” for the general CAF membership. The
policy should apply to Cox just as much to the rest of us or
not at all. It is as simple as that, otherwise such actions
become clearly HYPOCRITICAL.  

I would suggest a NWS “cover sheet/filter” option for each
INDIVIDUAL nude artwork listing, alongside the current
option for entire NWS room galleries. Cox has expressed a
desire to emulate the structure of Deviant Art to some
extent when it comes to adult works so I believe this
approach, which DA employs, for general CAF membership
eBay art listings would work very well should Cox decide to
implement the feature. This would solve the issue of the
“means” or “filter” which Cox does not currently provide.
-Sean Patty



Bill Cox wrote:  
Posted on 11/21/2011 at 8:31 PM

As you might imagine judging from Sean's passion about
this topic, he and I have a history of correspondence about
CAF and his artwork, among other things. Fortunately I still
prefer to call him Sean and keep things civil whereas he
prefers to refer to me as "Cox" in a derisive manner. No
matter, it really doesn't bother me but it is unfortunate. Sean
is actually a pretty decent guy whose artwork has come a
long way since I first became aware of him via CAF and I
think he has a lot of promise as an artist and storyteller.

Our decision to no longer allow linking to offensive subject
matter has absolutely nothing to do with making money.
We'll earn less money by not allowing our members to
promote these types of auctions, just like the members who
have promoted them in the past here at CAF will make less.
Since we started promoting editor's picks auctions we have
always edited the listings to exclude certain auctions
entirely - something we've never asked of our members via
policy. When we felt there was something notable that
needed to be included but crossed the line, we cropped the
image and changed the auction's title to NWS. So if Crumb
or Corben or the like had an auction that we knew collectors
would want to be made aware we found a way to promote it
while not going over-the-top. During this same time we've
allowed members to pretty much post whatever they liked
without any direction on our part. This free-for-all approach
was certainly profitable for both us and the members - like
Sean - who took advantage of it, but it always garned us
regular complaints from other collectors and visitors to the
site. And the more popular CAF became, the more
complaints were leveled at us.

I also think collectors and fans who visit CAF can tell the
difference between Crumb, Manara and Frazetta when
compared to Tijuana Bible, Titillating and Lowbrow type
artwork that is rampant on eBay and even CAF these days.
It's why we're taking a hard look at our site and the policies
we choose to establish or enforce. When our site ranks at
the top of  comic art search indexes at Google for words like
"hentai", "cumshot" (thank you, Sean - and thanks for finally
changing those titles), and "Megan Fox Nude", I do wonder if
I've let a few things get away from us regarding CAF and it's
policies.

At any rate, I'll leave it at that. Regards, Bill



Nick Katradis wrote:  
Posted on 11/21/2011 at 9:36 PM

Bill, hi, this is Nick Katradis. I agree with you on everything
you say about nude pictures on CAF.  You are right and you
should not allow nude pictures on CAF in any form.  And last
time I looked, it was your website and you get to make the
rules that can affect the longevity of CAF and its long term
success.

And with no offense to Sean, we cannot tell Bill to
compromise his site and what he thinks is ultimately the
best thing to do.

Also, the $50 we pay once a year for the premium
membership, does not give us a voice in deciding something
like this, especially if Bill determines that it can compromise
CAF in a bad way.  Ultimately, he decides what is right for
CAF.  And I agree.

Sean, I dont want my 10 year old son, who draws and
sometimes goes on CAF on my computer, or even my 14
year old son, to stumble onto a nude site or gallery or
auction.

Bill, keep up the great work. ps: My only request to better
CAF is to please allow a member to add another 1 or 2 rows
to the featured gallery so we can display even more art on
our featured page! - NIck K



Bill Cox wrote:  
Posted on 11/22/2011 at 9:42 AM

Hi Nick, Thanks for the comments. I understand your
concerns and you're not alone in your opinion as I do get
regular emails like yours.

I want to reiterate that all we're talking about here is first
cleaning up self-promoted auctions on CAF.

Secondly, we will be creating an editorial team to help us
locate images on the site that need to be properly locked
down based on the Terms & Conditions each member
agreed to when they signed on to using CAF, or potentially
removing images from the site based on a clear set of
guidelines that we'll adopt and publish on the site in
advance.  -Regards, Bill



SEAN PATTY wrote:
Posted on 11/22/2011 at 1:38 PM

No derision of Bill Cox was intended for it was my intention
to keep the debate formal for the purposes of this Blog. Bill
and I have had a couple private conversations before over
art matters and I have actually found them to be rather
interesting. I have offered valid observations and feedback
and it is intended for the betterment of CAF and for all of us
who have participated in its success. CAF is a favorite site of
mine, not just because I profit from promoting my work here,
and I have always appreciated Cox’s interest in promoting
many of my comics pages, pinups and ACEOs, but because
it is a treasure trove of great art. I am interested in a uniform
enforcement of any policies Cox sees fit to initiate. But it
must be uniform and no preferential treatment given to any
artist regardless of how big a “name” they are when it
comes to Cox promoting those eBay art auctions. It must be
a level playing field for all involved.

The inference at the end of Cox’s statement that I have used
such words as “hentai” (which I have no idea what that
means) or “cumshot” in my gallery posts is also not correct,
I will add. I have always tried to censor graphic titles on all
pornographic work and if there was an oversight in the past
it would have corrected years ago. I will add that these
pieces do receive the greatest views of all the work and
garner positive feedback in every instance and personal
emails as recently as last night, in fact, never one complaint.
This pornographic work was a SMALL part of my prolific
creative output, which is largely fantasy art related, and is
suitably situated in a locked down room out of respect for
Cox’s guidelines and the feedback he has offered in the
past, which, as I stated earlier, are correct for work of that
nature. -SP



SEAN PATTYwrote:
Posted on 11/22/2011 at 2:15 PM

Nick Katradis would be prudent to read the CAF Terms and
Conditions. Bill Cox clearly states: “This web site is primarily
intended for the use and enjoyment of persons who are at
least 18 years old.” Therefore, his sons of ages 10 and 14
are not intended to be served by this site according to these
terms. It is always appropriate for the parent to show proper
judgment when it comes to under-aged children using a
home computer and surfing the net. In fact, I believe there
are computer “parental controls” which may be utilized by a
concerned parent like Katradis who does not “want my 10
year old son, who draws and sometimes goes on CAF on my
computer, or even my 14 year old son, to stumble onto a
nude site or gallery or auction.” It is the parent’s
responsibility to show proper judgment in these matters so
that the images of a fantasy art master like Frazetta, who is
well represented here on CAF, and his tasteful and masterful
nude “Cat Girl” or a violent Conan work might not offend or
corrupt his children.

Also, all CAF members have a “voice” in the direction of this
community as long as Katradis pays a Premium
Membership fee or Creators such as myself have paid for
advertising, paid for a membership and have contributed
eBay art to the community for years which helps to
contribute money through the eBay affiliate partnership
program through which Cox profits. In his Ebay Partner
interview concerning his “affiliate marketing” position, Cox
states: “CAF is incredibly successful.” He goes on to list a
variety of statistics as of July 29, 2011: “we have more than
70,000 registered users and more than 500k unique visitors
a month, delivering upwards of 300,000 page views each
day.”

I agree, those sound like exceptional numbers and Cox is
indeed quite fortunate to benefit from us Creators, Dealers
and Buyers/Collectors and members like Katradis who have
collectively contributed to the success that CAF has
become. Katradis might be correct if CAF were a Non-Profit,
but it is not. So we indeed have a “voice” here and I
appreciate Katradis expressing his viewpoints.  -SP



Nick Katradis wrote:  
Posted on 11/23/2011 at 8:42 AM

Sean, first, you should address me and Bill by our first
names when referring to us.  You dont refer to me as
Katradis and Bill as Cox.  In fact, Bill already told you that it
offended him in a prior post. and you are still doing it. I am
Nick and he is Bill. Like I call you Sean and I dont know you
or want to.

Second, I will raise my kids the way I like and you raise
yours any way you see fit.

Third, If Bill wants to clear up the nudes and the x-rated CAF
posts, he could. Its his site. period. -nick
Ebay blacklist of deadbeat bidders who do
not pay after winning art items:
Bill Cox, owner of ComicArtFans.com,
.
INDEPENDENT PUBLISHING AND DISTRIBUTION
.
.
.
.
.

The entire contents of this website are Copyright (c) 2012 by Sean Patty/Battleground Victory.com  A.R.R. , except
where noted.
AN ART COMMUNITY SERVICE DESIGNED TO INFORM AND ENLIGHTEN WHERE DISREPUTABLE PEOPLE
ARE CONCERNED ON THE INTERNET. THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE BASED ON TRUE EXPERIENCES
BY SEAN PATTY.
PAGES OF THIS WEBSITE ARE
CURRENTLY UNDER MUCH NEEDED
RECONSTRUCTION AFTER 1 YEAR
AWAY